TongueTiedLabourerfromtheLandoftheLittlePeople
82992
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Nov 11, 2023 11:40 AM
TongueTiedLabourerfromtheLandoftheLittlePeople
82992
1617
17
rubypilgrim
There's another unseen epidemic. People used to be able to go to city records to learn about this or that history or local law, etc. There used to be paper records or some form of documentation. Not anymore. It costs money to store records, even digital records. Many cities only keep those records for 3-5 years or so, then delete them. Some cities urge employees to delete right away, often to protect from legal consequences. Others, if you contact a city representative, their city email links-
rubypilgrim
directly to their personal email account, and that account is off-limits to all sunshine laws. You will have no record of your correspondence with your city. As noted, sometimes this is to avoid legal consequences, sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's financial realities. But all those letters we have from our Founders? Everything like that from today is being permanently erased.
JCygnus
This is a great idea - apply it to cars, tvs, ... Adobe, Win 2000, games, Office... and to politics ( open records)
IDontKnowWhatToDoAnymoreAndImTired
Political records generally ARE completely open, from donations to election results to meetings. Most people just don't care enough to look.
OdinYggd
Manufacturing too. Industry is still relying on Windows XP and older to do important jobs that can't be easily replaced with something modern. Not only are the parts hard to get and the computers prone to sudden failure, but if the software breaks the knowledge of how to troubleshoot it is being lost.
ipFreak
I’ve been migrating data out of old medical software for years. So many products made in house by some former employee(s) that no longer work there. I’d actually enjoy extracting research data to preserve it. This is a great area for open source. If we want research shared with the world they’ll need to work without expensive software licenses.
poiuyt7481
Can we also do something similar with shows and streaming/production rights? There's several shows I watched when they released, that then later got bought by some Corp to stream it, but then the show never got added so now the only option is to try and by a DVD of it, but in many cases they don't sell it anymore either. So it's either pirate it, or try to buy a used DVD on ebay for 5000% the price. Ugh
OgreMkV
Yes. A lot of companies by other companies for a specific IP and literally toss the rest.
PirateRubberDuck
I am pretty sure there used to be companies that would buy up abandonware and sell it on cheap. Whatever happened to them.
IrrelevantIrrelevant
Lack of product, most likely. A lot of abandonware is made by companies who are still actively selling other products and hold the duality of refusing to acknowledge their old software exists, but also never allowing it to hit public domain. Can't buy what people won't sell.
therespooponmyhands
Working IT at a manufacturing company for Gov and Medical equipment... not kidding about it, the abandonware in many products rely on Windows NT. It's a nightmare to provide IT Security for this, despite virtualizing it to upgrade to more secure and newer OS... you will have hacker rapist constantly knocking on your windows because of this old foogy vulnerability.
yoseiwind
cobol. Still everywhere, including literally the financial sector, and the majority of those with the need experience for are 70+. Shits fucked yo.
weedeewee
Same for schematics & boardviews & software of electronic products that aren't being made new by the producing company.
NnyAppleseed
There are insurance companies still running DOS.
T3sl4co1l
Surprisingly (or maybe not??), backwards compatibility is actually pretty strong, at least among the couple major EDA vendors. Even interoperability, if grudgingly (usually with a required export step, not able to directly import the primary/native format; they can't be *too* convenient, right?..). They do many dumb or bad things to be sure, but this is one thing they've been surprisingly good at.
T3sl4co1l
At least, for some value of "couple major". I've used Altium the most, and I think OrCAD, PADS, Eagle, etc. have been at least middling about it. Can't speak too much for others (higher tier Cadence, Mentor, etc. products; other lesser brands; etc.).
HandoB4Javert
Stares at USB-C *CONNECTOR* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-Ct USB "S">ipedia.org/wiki/USB-C> cries at USB "Standard" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#3.2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB4
T3sl4co1l
USB is... messy.
SithElephant
Xkcd is very relevant.
SithElephant
That was not what the poster above was commenting on I think. Backwards compatability of EDA files matters only if they will supply them to customers, and they never, ever, ever will for nearly all makers.
T3sl4co1l
Yeah. It goes to show more where the focus is -- on the business end, compatibility is demanded, and provided. The end user though? The days of service manuals with schematics and extensive info ended loooong ago :(
weedeewee
keillrandor
Creative works that have a function (beyond entertainment) need to be treated differently by the law from those that don't.
thatwoodguy
One of the great victories of this is the Vectrex. When the company stopped making them, the software writers made all the software for it public domain. And now for 40 years later, there's a massively great Homebrew scene of people still writing software for this, some originals, and others work alikes for video games of era
Limoncellos
This is good. Old software for games like this should be public domain
thatwoodguy
The company tried to screw them out of the IP but they neglected to include that in the final contract so they just publicly released everything
Xt3rminat3
Simple solution in US, if you sell it you give a copy to library of Congress. 10 year time limit, then it's public domain and can be distributed for free by Gov.
Tezunegari
Additionally, you also have to give the source code and all assets (images, icons, sounds, etc) used for the program and the 3rd-party libraries and settings you used to compile it. also, if a company buys the original owner of the program they have to renew the license under their name or lose it.
RooGryphon
You have to renew it every 10 years too. Failure to renew it means you have no interest in it and it will become public domain within 7 days automatically
dancemontec
My old ass ground penetrating radar unit is one, lol. I wish I could find someone to fix it so I don't have to hit it to get the screen to work and wondering if this time is the last time it'll work.
BobbyDeanWillicker
They turned it into a subscription service on every platform, now you can endlessly pay that $5 over and over in hopes that your favorite game will pop up "sometime soon* in the list
woobniggurath
The enshittification spreads like flesh-eating bacteria
VCJunky
im still crying over "Master x Master". that game is not coming back and there is nothing else like it
Hammerwell
Came out in june 2017 and was closed january 2018? WTF?
zanaria
Companies learned years ago that things lasting for a long time does not make them money, that is why everything breaks down and needs to be replaced so quickly.
GCRust
Which is fine for the short term, but now we're 30 years down the road and technology has advanced to a point that stuff can't just be "replaced". (Flashback to the "Never Obsolete" computers of the late 90s) The entire edifice is going to crash down in the next 20 years due to greed and failure to think forward.
zanaria
Yeah, its all about the quick buck. Greed will be the downfall of society...
Slash0mega
"never obsolete" never meant that that particular computer was going to last forever, that was Marketing Speech for "sign up with this service, and we will replace the computer when it got too old!"
Canofminus
I had to get support for key making software from a company that was in the middle of actively abandoning the software. Literally was “you need this package to do what you want to do.” “Okay, what’s the license cost for that add on and what’s the turnaround time from purchase to use?” “Oh, its development has been halted. There wasn’t enough demand.” “Then why would you…. Do you… do you understand my frustration here?” “Sorry…..”
IDontKnowWhatToDoAnymoreAndImTired
Vis a vis games, this is pretty much how GOG, a.k.a Good Old Games, got started. They re-packed really old games to work on newer systems, and sold them for dirt cheap with no DRM. Nowadays they sell a lot of modern games as well, but abandonware is where they started. One of my favorite games is on there for $6; there was a time when to get a copy you had to go on eBay and pay closer to $100.
MrWobblyHead
In a customer lab I was working in this week (doing maintenance on a system we have installed there) there are four cryogenic sample storage vats. Each each hooked up to an old Dell PC running Windows 98 because the control software requires it. They use a 4 way KVM to access each PC. I see old Windows versions being used a lot in the labs I work at, because equipment software doesn't work on newer versions.
ChrisVZ
I can relate to the 3rd guy. The pharma company I work for runs their entire inventory system on an emulator because it was written in 1980. The day computers can’t run the emulator is the day the entire place folds.
mikeatike
Just emulate today's computer on future hardware and then run the inventory emulator on THAT. :)
TLORR
you think you are joking, but i know my friend managens a hypermodern server, that runs a hyper vm, that emulates a NT4 windows, that runs a program that emulates some sort of ancient mainframe/plc, that interacts with a even more ancient control system that runs the belt system in a paint department. Nobody has any clue how that last program works, the last guy set it up before retiring apperently. If
mikeatike
Not surprised at all. But I would be worried that ancient software isn't relying on some odd quirk of the original platform that is "fixed" by emulatuon.
jayman0123
My warehouse store runs on 40 year old dos prompt style software for almost EVERYTHING. It's been in the "phaseout" process literally for 20 years. No programmer is brave enough to write a new backbone system so all the "new" programs are android overlays that load from the old software
jayman0123
And the last time someone broke something, they went and dug the last remaining original programmer out of a fucking nursing home to have him fix it
SpotlightStealer
Holy shit XD
datester35
That is crazy "Sir you have one final mission for us"
kipagami
I can see the movie trailer now: "There is only one last hope to save all of ... the warehouse operations system." *Cut to guy in nursing home* "Without their help, the entire shipping from this warehouse will be down for months!"
GreetingsSirAndOrMaamIAmUsingThisFieldToIntroduceMyselfAscrsklr
This is amazing
aducksayswhat
There's two issues there, for offline devices it's hardware survivability, online they need to adapt to an increasingly hostile environment
HOOMANGUY
Copy right should expire at the death of the author. No company should profit off of someone elses work for eternity.
Rrrrgrr
Copywrite was designed to reward innovation and creators. It does not do that, it's possible it never did.
RocketKokket
I fully support this and will actively contribute abandonware to the free open source digital future
depressedscientist
When I was an engineer at NASA it was the same. So many systems being maintained with abandonware. And there’s just no way to afford to replace the equipment or convert the data without breaking the annual budget for the entire department’s year on this one expense.
ObiWanCanBlowME
How cool is that phrase btw ''when I was an engineer at NASA''. Just casual. Nice.
AtomicCometLauncher
I feel this so hard. There's a decent amount of replacement or at least bridging that can be done on the hardware side, but the amount of research I had to do to get abandonware running after a break ... you don't know job related terror until the unexpected shutdown hits and you're waiting on the edge of your seat for the reboot to take....
sirauthor
This sounds like Jurassic Park.
Grurim
Wasn't there also an issue where they had to pull an engineer out of retirement for help on building an engine or some such, because they lost some critical piece and the tech was older, so basically, no-one knew how to do it save for a couple of old retired peeps?
BC2k2
This was the plot of the movie Space Cowboys.
Grurim
naa, not that, but I can't seem to remember what it was. I think it had to do with the Saturn V rocket, which is old tech anyway, but I dunno. Lots of shit is getting forgotten and lost as people retire and die :/
Etherealvalentine
The military & government runs on WINXP
chromed
It all boils down to capitalist greed. Forcing people to rebuy a new version of what they have shouldn't be allowed to be good business.
Leithoa
Line. Go. Up.
NachoIskerka
But thats technically not? Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade a legacy system or to blindly upgrade. Like, I get not buying the exact same thing multiple to do a minimum amount of compatibility housekeeping; but in the music world its understood you have one computer that stays off the wifi and you don't update ANYTHING unless it breaks physically. I have one still running w10 so i have 32 bit compatibility for all my plugins and controller editors.
tarnok
Wait, you think w10 is legacy? Oof
NachoIskerka
The 32 bit running versions are now. The ones sold in the last few years won't run 32 bit programs anymore.
tarnok
Yeah...no. Still not legacy bruh
farfie
I hate this argument. There is no 'technically' in this, you either pay for it now before shit breaks or you pay for it later *when* it breaks. There's no ifs and buts about it. You *will* run out of spare parts at some point and I think that you will find entropy *itself* very hard to persuade. The fix is simple, make legacy documents and databases convertable in software so that *when* shit breaks, it doesn't destroy everything that the tech was made for. Problem solved.
Leithoa
"your money or your life" is technically a choice too. You're missing the point pretty dang hard.
Selerox
Why do I get the feeling you've missed the point?
catlovermrvaca
How do you not understand that scientists and researchers need to be able to combine and use data for consecutive years and years to do literally some of the most important life saving research for humanity. This is t just about video games
Hatrax
One of my side gigs is repairing and restoring tube radios from the 1920s to 1950s. It's the ultimate abandonware exercise- we have new old stock of tubes and parts, we can cannibalize from junk sets, we can even make new ones by machining, casting, or 3D printing them. There are schematics, of course. But when you have a rare part on a rare set that we don't have an original for to make a copy of, when you have a small company's set that has no documentation at all because 1/2
Hatrax
the company folded or switched hands six times and it was all thrown away, when the molds used to make knobs and trim were melted down for scrap 60 years ago, when you have no notes on how they did processes... it can be a challenge. The radios still work great and you can add bluetooth to them without changing the circuitry at all (just tack it on.) This is a minor niche, not nearly as critical as med research but it's my contribution to trying to keep this history alive. 2/2
TongueTiedLabourerfromtheLandoftheLittlePeople
Higure
And also, the server specs should be open, so that if the software relies on phoning home to the manufacturer, and the manufacturer stops picking up, anyone should be able to intercept their own calls and handle it, should they have the resources to handle it. Or be able to redirect it anywhere they want, and rely on someone else to pick up the server hosting.
DoomSquirter
I really wonder if when valve kicks the bucket one day if they will unlock somehow all of our game libraries like they said they would
Higure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRFkVQZ9icU Here is Linus discussing one particular case.
VodkaReindeer
If it's just phoning home, it's probably easier to crack the game than make a server.
Higure
For a single person, maybe. But if it's a multiplayer game, with a community, which is just going to happen more and more, having someone step up and make the servers for everyone else to join is the only way.
Higure
Besides, there are cases where the ability to patch the game is physically gone. The source code doesn't exist any more. Anyone who knows anything about the game is gone from the company and no one with the ability to patch has access to patch. At that point, letting someone else take over the servers is the only correct way out for the owners.
Like2Fox
Honestly, in areas like research, you can just sue for patent. You'll get default judgment, and it's all yours
apLundell
I don't know what nation you're from, but here in USA there's no procedure for that. If there was, it would get used a LOT. Archive dot Org alone would be doing that hundreds of times per day.
SithElephant
Whaaaaaaaat? That is an utterly meaningless comment. 'sue for patent' isn't actually a thing if what you want is schematics, APIs/docs to run your hardware on modern OS by reimplementing it, or similar. Patents in many cases may have expired anyway. Copyright will not for large parts of a century and has no simple mechanism for challenge.
LumpPump
okay so instead of wasting the budget on upgrading, you waste the years budget maybe even more than a year, on hiring a lawyer on a case that will probably drain your money/funding up dry long before its over...
CheshireCad
Their point being that, if the company doesn't exist anymore or doesn't give a shit about defending it, then they won't even respond to the suit, and you'll win by default. And if filing a suit in this case is just a simple matter of "fill out this form and pay a $20 fee", then you wouldn't even need a lawyer.
Like2Fox
Indeed
YouWouldLookMeInPurple
Better: Whenever you publish any software, you must submit the source code in full to a government entity (patent office?). 10 years later, it becomes public. Fuck proprietary, closed-source software. The software world was so much better before Gates and the other capitalists got their hands on it.
UncleMeaty
People who write software like to get paid for their efforts. Sorry this inconveniences you. What software world was there before Gates? Microsoft started in 1975.
IrrelevantIrrelevant
That doesn't really apply anymore when people refuse to sell said old software.
UncleMeaty
Sure does if I'm forced to give away old versions of programs, including full source code. Lots of people will just use the old, free ones instead of buying new ones. Besides, why should I be forced to give away something I created?
IrrelevantIrrelevant
If you are no longer selling it, then it is no longer a matter of money. Intentionally hiding something away to force people to upgrade is, quite frankly, against the spirit of why Copyright was made in the first place, as it wasn't designed to turn a product into a subscription model. The post we are commenting on quite literally brings up why this is a problem.
UncleMeaty
Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade. They can continue using the old version as long as they want. That doesn't mean that someone should be forced to give the old version to you.
ruint
It isn't always obvious who owns the rights to old third party games; and even when it is, that might not cover all of the music, assets, or licensed code used, or mean the original dev files are still around to be repackaged. Maybe if there was protection for legally issued rom dumps? Old games with complex ownership just aren't worth the investment to recreate what pirates already have.
DoomSquirter
bought gta vice city on steam and was so pissed that they removed half the music from the game. have cds they can't touch. so damn stupid
Richter12x2
Here's an idea. Charge the $5, but give 100 pct of the proceeds to charity. Then the company isn't profiting off the other music and assets, instead it's providing good in the world.
wabitgirl
But there are things that we can't pirate. Like EV Nova, by Ambrosia. Their validation server is down. You CANNOT play the game without validation. The ONLY way to play it is to literally brute force a hash code for authentication. I would gladly throw $20 at them for the game but I fucking CAN'T. It's infuriating, because it's one of my favorite nostalgia game and it's quite literally unplayable without learning basic hacking.
2graves
I have a CD copy with my mods and uhhhh solutions to that
wabitgirl
Yooooo, send me a pm with them deets. I would gladly pay you what I would pay Ambrosia for a crack that gets me around the issues and lets me play my favorite space based storyline game again!
2graves
I'll look for it this weekend and message ya
wilkins1952
While true in that case it's "Well that's a you problem not an us problem." Really why should people not have the right to play the game from their childhood simply because some Corpo wants to be greedy but can't
MilesOfWhyles
"Right to play" is a weird phrase. "Able to play", sure. But you aren't owed anything regarding playing a game.
THExPILLOx
I'm torn on this. Gaming is part of culture. But thanks to Disney and greed, what used to be a natural cycle: creation>profit>public domain. Has been bastardized to be so far reaching that by the time something legally reaches public domain now, the cultural impact has evaporated. Under the original copyright of the united states, a lot of these abandonware games would be in public domain. Which would mean anyone across the world would have the right to play them. Og copyright was 14years.
wabitgirl
I'm so glad to see someone else talking about how Disney is driving the vast majority of this problem. They deserve to be raked over the coals and abandoned to collapse.
THExPILLOx
Whereas modern copyright could withhold works for upwards of 120years. Life of author+70 years. So if someone were to create something at the age of 25, that could be locked away for 130 years.
LostCaterpillar
I actually disagree, and not just for games. Copyright has bloated far beyond supporting the public good. If you can't make your investment back in 10 years you're never going to make it back. Maybe we give the option for an extension if you're still pumping out sequels and willing to pay a percentage to the government for the privilege. Any art older than 20 years though? Yes, I think the public has a right to that art. It's a part of our culture and a part of our past.
wabitgirl
To add, all of this is just restriction of data and information. Information should be free. If your product is outclassed by a better product, you have the available information to make a better one, instead of litigating to prevent other people from improving on what already exists. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION FOR ALL! ALL OF IT. FREE.
RunningInSpaces
You're barking up the wrong tree. You don't have a right to commercial things. That doesn't mean the copyright system isn't in dire need of improvement. Even with your example, how long between start wars 6 and 1? More than the ten years you proposed. Even for a game, what if the music still makes money? Or the characters? Should it still be public domain? It's not as trivial a subject or proposition as you present it.
LostCaterpillar
Just because someone's making money on it doesn't mean they should get a monopoly on it. Shakespeare still makes money. Do we owe it to his descendants to extend copyright out hundreds of years? Star Wars is the perfect example. Dude made his films, made his money, and the movies passed into cultural touchstones whose content are such a common part of culture that even children who haven't seen the films quote them. By rights they should belong to the public.
LostCaterpillar
Would it be just for the government to say "Catholic Church wrote the Bible, they own it now and nobody else is allowed to use Jesus without their permission?" Obviously not. Those myths are a part of our shared tradition, no matter how you feel about them. Guess what? Star Wars is is also part of our shared tradition now and should likewise belong to everybody.
wabitgirl
Thank Disney for really fucking up legal precedent for intellectual property and public domain rights. They've absolutely dumpsterfucked the art animation industry in this regard and it gives other shitty companies a precedent to say, "Look at what this multibillion dollar company is doing, we should be allowed to do that too!" Everything should be public domain, at the very latest, when the original creator dies.