Che07
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Feb 25, 2025 3:25 PM
Che07
56640
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Fluffy314
Oh. Calculated as 50% of the median disposable income. The billionaires are probably defining that single-handedly for the U.S.
koitk
As Estonian, I always knew we were better than Latvians...
whizzer
33 hours for Ireland....right.
ArmedandOverclocked
idk Japan's is kind of sus. Like yea cost of living is low compared to a lot of other countries, especially outside of the major cities, but they also work a crap ton of hours for a lot less pay.
KiwiGameDev
I think their calculation is VERY isolated and not exactly true in any practical sense, but I do think it gives a decent idea of just how unreasonable the expectations for “survival” are
fskn
Show us more countries, please. How many hours does a person in other countries below the US need to work?
AzgarOgly
no, you don't get it
US is the worsest
veesee
44 hours in canada is a lie. $17.40 x 44 hours a week is $3062.4 a monthly. Thats $2200 a month after taxes.
Rent is $1200 with a roommate or $1800+ for a one bedroom.
This is based on British Columbia as an example and looking at the lower mainland for someone to live.
There are other cities but you aren't faring better in any of those.
veesee
Keep in mind the minimum wage of $17.40 has gone up since this study as has the cost of living.
captainfakeypants
Once again, hard evidence proves that the US is a third-world country run by billionaire shadow-dictators.
LLMstudio
Hmmm seems to be one missing country god I can’t think of the name but i know they have a robust Uyghur population.
DaPopeM
I'm working two jobs at 110 hours every two weeks to live ...
t9dawg
Not on that list: Scandinavian countries.
Guess why.
c991257
Sweden and Denmark are off the list because of no government mandated minimum wage. Norway has nine industries with minimum wage, and this is to ensure foreign workers don't get screwed, but minimum wage for eg teachers or nurses.
videopro10
Absurd way to measure that. A poorer country with a low minimum wage could have the same ratio as a rich country with a high minimum wage. Which... is exactly what is happening on the chart. What kind of lifestyle does median disposable income get you in Poland vs The Netherlands?
RunawaySpoons
Japan, UK, France, New Zealand - poor countries with low minimum wages? *cough £11.44 cough*
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
comparing it as % disposable income basically says "this is how much you have to work in order to have things that are as nice as your neighbors' things" which i guess is an analysis you can technically perform?
llamableat
Chart could be better at illustrating the horrible class divide but before I'd say that, it'd probable behoove me to agree with the sentiment: US has become unrecognizably dystopian in that intentional income inequality still gets muddled under the propaganda of hard work achieves anything.
Wolfos
I live in the Netherlands. If I made the median income I'd be driving a Porsche by now lol. Definitely very comfortable if you don't have kids.
LooseEelBall
I expect a median income would garner a typical standard of living, yes. There are different definitions of poverty. One is absolute poverty which leaves someone unable to meet basic survival needs. Another is relative poverty, which is about affluence and inclusion related to a reference group. For example, as in this graph, one's compatriots. Expanding the reference group globally is complex. I would be interested in hearing what metrics you would use to do this?
LooseEelBall
As I see it, your critique has less to do with measuring poverty and more with comparing countries to each other. A poor person has fewer means to choose a country of living in. But the less relatively poor they are, the easier it is to gain additional options, insofar as those are locally available. This ease might be called 'freedom'.
icouldnotthinkofagoodusername
Now do China
Nanananahatman
The Japan numbers confuse me. They have a culture of extreme overwork and unpaid overtime, plus often mandatory after work drinking parties. Is the disconnect due to what the poverty line is there? Not looking at the unpaid hours and secondary work related activities? If the metric is hours to pull just yourself out, is it because many households are single earner still, plus aging population so one earner is covering spouse, children, and both sets of aging parents? Something isn't adding up.
KiwiGameDev
That’s not about escaping poverty, that’s about a whole culture. It’s not “illegal” to leave when your shift ends, even if your boss hasn’t. But if you do, that goes against you. They have so many unspoken rules of respect and reverence that the eggshells you have to work on and the “voluntary” tasks you have to complete is what kills. It’s way more than just “I need money”
Zeplin
As someone who spends a lot of time in Japan, I'm pretty sceptical of that number.
Lightsmith
Oh yeah America # 1
Theniyaal
Calling bullshit on Canada's numbers. We don't have a national minimum wage, but here in Alberta 44 hours a week at minimum wage is 33,000 net. No way you're taking home 29,000 to be above the poverty line, and that's assuming you have only yourself to support.
wadatahmydamie
This chart explicitly includes receiving benefits
Theniyaal
Very few minimum wage workers get benefits here, but my math was wrong anyways. I calculated for 50 weeks and didn't factor in our two weeks paid vacation time, so it's actually $34,320 per year.
KAPTKipper
As of 2025, the federal minimum wage in Canada is set to be $17.70 per hour, significantly higher than the $15.50 per hour minimum wage in 2022
Some provinces trail BEHIND the federal min. Like Alberta.
https://www.retailcouncil.org/resources/quick-facts/minimum-wage-by-province/
funken77
And a lot of us US citizens know it. The "middle " lives in fear of becoming the "lower", while the upper 10% pit everyone else against each other.
GreenMnM
The middle is an abject and outright lie. There is no middle anymore. The disparity of the "middle" to the rich is so unfathomable as to be the difference between flying a plain and lifting off earth with a rocket to head to Mars.
The "middle class" used to be 1 person, usually a man, working a 40 hour week and buying a home while supporting his family. How many incomes does it take to do that now? 2? 3? Kids? Ha!
They continually push the American dream lie bc it suits them. Hides disparity.
funken77
Hehe, all true. There's a reason I put "middle" in quotes. The new middle is being almost poor. Most families can't support themselves at twice the national average income.
eggmuffin
It never existed. It was always a lie. It was always a fantasy concocted to obstruct class solidarity and obscure the nature of the conflict.
The Owners managed to convince a significant portion of the Workers that they aren't Workers, and that they would benefit from adopting an antagonistic position towards their own class.
It worked like a charm. US Workers were divided and conquered. And by now they're so thoroughly indoctrinated that they believe their oppression is privilege.
eggmuffin
It was always a lie. It is a conceit intended to divide the working class by deluding the workers into believing that they're not workers.
It injects the false notion that being a worker has anything to do with the size of your wage. It is false because the fact that there is a wage involved at all is what makes you a worker.
The other class is the Owning Class. They do not work for others, for they own the means of production. The means by which value is created. They don't do. They just own.
Comet260
Yet the owner class has legions of simps at their disposal.
dizzyturtle
I'm curious to see this broken down by State. For example the Federal minimum wage is $7.25 but most states pay more than that. I live in California and the minimum wage is $16.50 here.
SuRavSmash11
How is this "escaping" poverty?
MacCrack
Yeah idk from when this is but it's either bs or grossly outdated.
flyingmonsters
Japan might be 14 hours but they literally have a word for "working to death". It's a horrible work life culture there
Derpehh
It's one of the highest levels of poverty in the developed world, so high that the government literally changed its definition so that it wouldn't look so bad.
Why? You are on salary and are expected to work from 8am to 9pm. Services cost a lot. Real-estate seems cheap until you factor in insurance/maintenance coupled with extreme weather and natural disasters. There is no progression due to company structures. US least you can move up or leave. There is no leaving your job in Japan.
kalja
Arigato sensei..
bittenicht39
Karoshi.
Comet260
Veeeery similar to the Kiroshi optics corporation in the Cyberpunk universe.
GoldenPhoenix9u
kuroshi optics? Those are top of the line!
chaoskingzero
Black Companies...
diezl97
Stuff in Japan is also dirt cheap due to the deflationary recession they've been in for the past 40 years so in some ways it's easier to scrape by
Manorexia
I have always wondered why NEETs seem to be a largely Japanese phenomenon and if only 14hr of work are needed to not be in poverty it tracks.
Legrooveth
Not in Education, Employment or Training?
Manorexia
Yeah stereotypically shown as someone living alone or at home and is a shutin playing video games/watching anime
drinkthederpentine
Why constant obsession with federal minimum wage vs actual median wage? Federal minimum does not account for local minimums. Median wage is measured and reflects reality, like the poverty level calculation. This is intentionally misleading.
familiarusername
Debatable graph. Actual poverty numbers are way off of these rankings so they’re basically meaningless.
UsualLoser
Been poor in Japan and I don't get this graph. If you have been poor for a long time you are not elligible for help and that's not 14h working at the conbini at 980yen/hour that will save you.
A crappy place is like 50k per month and food 1500 per day minimum, add to that amenities. That's completely off.
VincentV189
"The poverty line is calculated as the median disposable income in the country" That is a really weird way to describe escaping poverty, and I feel like it would be subject to statistically heavy hitters skewing it one direction. When the floor is $0 and infinite cap the median can be moved. Maybe it they cut off the top 2% to remove some of the excess noise? Also a single worker working minimum wage or what? Also living where?
UsualLoser
I get that. Also I would say that as of 2020-ish in Tokyo there is a hard bar at which everything becomes very affordable to you (500-600k yen/month) and this is a relatively easy to achieve bar for any senior IT staff. 1-2M yen/month is now even the norm.
It skews everything. Been very poor then very well paid in Japan and a given set of industries are blowing away the struggle threshold. I would argue that 150k in Okinawa would suffice to survive and 200k in Tokyo.
UsualLoser
As per own experience you need 200k-ish per month to stop being absolutely dirt poor in Japan.
You'll still be poor AF but you can survive.
lonelyrangerofthedreams
Italy is not even in the list, so I guess is over 80 hours or impossible.
bittenicht39
Italy does not have a minimum wage prescribed by law.
anomnomnomaly
What benefits? I have a friend who is a carer for their elderly mum with dementia and gets about £4200 a year in carers allowance and can't work at all as she's so dependent on his care. That's about £80 a week, that doesn't even cover food and utilities. Min wage £12.20x23 is £280 before taxes and NI, so around £300 inc CA total, or £1300 a month. Impossible to live on that if you have rent/mortgage to pay.
AgathaHarkness
Carers allowance should be better, but it's amazing you guys get any at all. (American here - yeah no surprise that we don't have that.)
JPNGY76
You pay no tax on the first £12,570 of earnings.
anomnomnomaly
But if you earn just £1 more than you are allowed to under DWP rules for carers... you lose ALL of the allowance. There's a big scandal about it with people being told 5yrs later that they have to repay thousands. DWP just lost a judicial review after a woman challenged their deceptive and inconsistent practices.
RunawaySpoons
They should be eligible for Universal Credit if they have no other income (including a partner's), unless they have savings/capital above £16,000. It's still not great, but it's a lot more than just Carers Allowance alone. UC also pays towards rent, although not mortgages.
What3Birds
Also you start losing benefits if you work more than 16 hours in the UK
RunawaySpoons
Depends on which benefit. It's tapered at 55% for UC but if they have a dependant child or a health condition affecting ability to work, they get to keep up to £404 or £673 per month before the tapered deduction (the higher amount if they don't claim housing costs, lower if they do).
ESA and Carers Allowance do have set earnings thresholds though.
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
this is basically a data artifact - it says at the bottom "poverty line is calculated as 50% of the median disposable income in the country / source: OECD" and the US has a *much higher* disposable income than any of those countries in OECD data: https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/household-disposable-income.html it makes no sense to calculate this as percent disposable income instead of percent cost of living
Togame21
But if a lot of things in the country are privatized and so only available if you as a consumer pay money for them, (healthcare, good schools) you do indeed need more disposable income, because less of the things that you need are just given to you, and this also means that you lose more of those things if you don't work.
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
also only 15% of americans live in a state where the federal minimum wage even applies - in fact the median american by minimum wage is a Virginian with a $12.41/hr minimum wage. there are good reasons to raise the federal minimum wage but this analysis is basically fradulent
Frogyz
If you work 23 hours in the UK you can still claim a lot of benefits, so even this is way off.
Ebo352
Weird flex here
onlymypoorwhisker
In the UK, a single person with no disabilities or children working 23 hours at £12ph is £1150 takehome pay. Paying £750 a month private rent for a 1 bed flat, £1190 a year council tax would be entitled to £58 a week in benefits. This would be simply existing with little or no ability to save for the future or to enjoy life.
MyRespectableAlterEgo
When I was truly impoverished (insecure housing & heroin addiction), that state of "barely making it" was the most dangerous place to be: it made life menial & stressful without being rewarding, and provided just enough income to be able to easily relapse. 23hrs might be enough to fit some definitions of poverty, but truly escaping it sustainably (esp. in London) took 3.5 years of 50hr weeks at hard, demeaning work. And that's with the NHS treating my addiction and a supportive, loving partner.
CongratsYouAreHereNow
This graph is not, “to get off benefits”
Frogyz
No, this graph is 'get out of poverty' and I'm not even sure what that means now if being 'out of poverty' means not being able to afford to live a stable life.
CongratsYouAreHereNow
I’m confused too
RunawaySpoons
Mm, depends. This says a single person claiming benefits, but unless they rent and/or have a disability affecting ability to work, the maximum hrs per week you can work at minimum wage and still claim any benefits (like, pennies) is 14. Lower if they're under 25, more like 11 hours.
As soon as you add in children or a partner, that changes the calculation but obviously no longer is 'a single person'.
RunawaySpoons
*for accuracy's sake, by 'benefits' I was referring to Universal Credit. For JSA (e.g. if someone has capital over £16,000 and thus isn't eligible for UC), it's 8hrs - but with that financial cushion they're not likely to be classed as in poverty.
Frogyz
I mean that if you work 23 hours to not be in poverty, the government still recognises that assistance is required. 23 hours living wage in scotland is £1,200 per month. If you live alone then rent is about half of that. You're telling me I'm not in poverty but can't afford to live in a flat nevermind get a house of my own?
Frogyz
Sorry this wasn't intended to sound hostile toward you. :)
RunawaySpoons
I don't know what matrices they're using, and it's widely known by charities and people aware of poverty that the levels of UC aren't enough. (Plus rent means they pay style towards it which means you can earn more and still be entitled to some UC, but rent allowances for a single person are ridiculously low. You only get the shared room rate unless you're over 35 or receive a qualifying disability benefit!)
RunawaySpoons
*metrics, not matrices
*Plus rent means they pay some …
(Aiyaiyai, typos)
Artebudz
Im losing pip in april, and im.on universal credit. Health issues limiting job options and forced me out of university so no qualifications. Getting close to 3 years of job searching.
£400 a month universal credit isnt enough. My budget going forward is about £2 a day for food, and maybe a couple of hours of heating every few days in winter.
Not fun
busybusybumblebee
Will you appeal the PIP decision? Citizens Advice can help with the appeal.
RunawaySpoons
Also have you had a WCA for UC? If so, did you agree with the decision?
RunawaySpoons
Why are you losing PIP? If it's because your review is delayed, they'll extend the award by a year to give themselves more time to get to it.
It was a year between sending my review form and being booked an assessment, and the timelines I'm hearing from others are around 11-13 months. Though I'm sure they could do it much quicker if they actually read our forms and did it all paper-based, like Attendance Allowance and how Scotland tend to do for ADP.
RedTailedHawk
What did they mean by "escape"?
giraffinator
'Barely scrape by' was taken
LjubljanaJeNajlepseMestoNaSvetu
Not be in abject poverty at the end of that month, provided you started it with no debt.
Boksha
This doesn't say anything about a month. The explanation is at the bottom. This is the amount of hours you have to work per week to have an income equal to half the median disposable income in the same country.
So say the median income per person after taxes in the Netherlands is 2400 euros/month, then this graph tells you that, in order to make half of that, so 1200 euros/month, you need to work 36 hours per week at the Dutch minimum wage.
cepacolusmaximus
"eat food and pay rent" is now apparently "escaping poverty."
Damagey
You guys are eating food
RedTailedHawk
mjperk
Probably reach above the poverty line.
gesel
It is a valid indictment of minimum wage, but don't misinterpret it as an indictment of the economy as a whole. You, probably closwr to median wage than minimum, have a very different economic picture.
Minimum wage should be reset and then indexed going forward.
Carl99
Don't forget different costs of living though. Income alone isn't a useful metric at all.
2fast4u2
As of now, to pay for housing, food and common bills.
Kyzyl
The constant sustained effort to keep enough of your face above water just to breathe.
We add so many bricks to people's pockets and throw them overboard. And then look down upon *them* from our tiny raft, while the yachts sail by.
rhuala
We?
Kyzyl
You better believe it. You and I, @rhuala are on the brick distribution team.
Idontneedrealfacts
They mean buy a dine bag of fentanyl and a fifth of liquor
Sonicschilidogs
If you die if exhaustion you're no longer poor!
Callipygius
Yeah I agree with the premise of this chart and don't doubt it, but I do wish people would use more specific terminology, otherwise it gives me this gross feeling that someone is trying to mislead me in some way.
oddoregano
Not live pay check to pay check I'm assuming.
HandoB4Javert
Reaching the top of the floor you can start to have dreams, rather than be under it...
ryti
Live comfortably I would imagine. Not wealthy but not poor. Literally what your need to live a week.
LoitninStroik
80 hours at minimum wage is still like making less than $16 an hour for an average 40-hour week. No fucking way that's "comfortable."
ryti
We know that but that is why we are last in this chart. Not to mention the tomfoolery and mistakes made during this data grab. It’s not a great chart, just that we are fucked more than places US consider poverty.
GSA1386
Im not sure but Im a dual citizen of the US and Italy... I currently live in the US but I was considering moving to Italy. Italy isn't even on this list. I assume that's a bad sign?
darthnerdus6236
This is only from 2022 and already wildly out of date. A lot of people have definitely slid back into poverty.
Mxlespxles
xXCarpeNoctumXx
I addume this means hours worked at minimum wage to earn enough for a months espenses.....but I'd like my assumption to be clarified obviously
LooseEelBall
"Poverty is calculated as 50% of the median disposable income in the country". Says so on the bottom of the image. That is: to make more than half of the median income in a given country, you need to work the amount of hours pictured. However: the word 'escape' does seem to suggest a more permanent solution than merely not being in poverty a given week.
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
it's median *disposable* income, not median income. OECD defines "disposable income" as income minus taxes. this analysis is a data artifact - someone in the US pays for healthcare with their "disposable income" while someone where healthcare is paid for by taxes does not, so *even if their total healthcare costs and pre-healthcare incomes are the same* an american would have higher disposable income and a worse position on this chart (in which disposable income is the denominator)
Boksha
And the US' position on this chart is already pretty damn bad.
ForPriestSake
So I’m pretty poor but I don’t think I need 80 hours of work. Is the fact that musk has 440 billion, and makes 8 billion a day greatly affect this median income? If we factor in the 100 multi billionaires incomes then of course this hourly is high. I hate stats. I think this would be more accurate if it was based on the cost of living rather then net income
TheUnspeakableh
Median is line everyone up from highest to lowest and take the person exactly in the middle. The 50 or so absolutely insanely rich people do not have any statistically significant effect on the results. You are thinking of mean, which is total and divide by number of people, even then, it would add a miniscule amount to the total.
Boksha
This chart is based on median income vs. minimum wage, so the top 50% richest people don't even factor into it.