defideli
79348
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Nov 3, 2020 10:13 AM
defideli
79348
2460
112
RabidManatee
I think he already has the ending done. It will be released when he dies so he doesnt have to listen to any complaints.
StixZadinia
Just give us the sixth book already!
sparkletempt
If life and death of character doesn't serve the plot than it is bad writing done only for shock value.Why should I care or invest myself
Imalwaysready
Because his deaths do serve the plot?
ScottSteinerMaths
Martin's style of writing is the cure to insomnia. The man has a talent for droning on about the most trivial things. Dude needs an editor.
urgotobekiddingme
Didn't he criticize tolkien for bringing gandalf back. Then he goes on to do it himself more than twice. Don't spit to the sky folks.
seventhallycat
Who else did he bring back beside Catelyn and Benjen Stark?
sjpace76
Wait, in the books besides Stoneheart has been confirmed? I don't think Cold hands has been.
Inkliest
Tbh, the constant death of main characters was on par with the wars of the roses he based it on. But the ending should have also followed it
VodkaReindeer
You're supposed to add more characters. Like Grey's Anatomy did. And it was better for it.
RocinanteBelongsToMars
I think is disconnects you from the characters, knowing they could die at any moment. And as a shock thing it only works once or twice.
PlasticF0rk
How did he run out of interesting things to write in the middle of the series?
GrimFinn
GRRM's writing style in ASOIAF is that he writes characters, not plot. That's why the start of the series is so compelling, since it has...
GrimFinn
...heaps of interesting characters with their own storyline, but when the time comes to tie all of the separate plot strands into a neat...
GrimFinn
...coherent conclusion, it's going to be really, really hard to do satisfyingly.
SyntheticDivine
The show did this more than the books. It started to become dumb the way they did it in my opinion.
Jineapple
The abundance of deaths can be tiresome, I understand that, but it really has nothing to do with why Martin is stuck. What is this meme?
ToastedEggSandwich
He's stuck because he eliminated all conflict. None of the survivors knew each other by book 4 and all the meaningful plots died with them.
Schmong
He should close up the main story and then hammer out the details on the subplots in another book because theres no way he can close up all
Schmong
Those different plot threads within one book. Too many moving pieces it will be hard to read and write
PigWithAWoodenLeg
GRRM's problem is that he gets distracted and comes up with new story ideas halfway through that aren't nearly as good as his original plan
IamfunatpartiesIknow
He's said in an interview that he's sticking to his original idea even if people have already guessed what happens
PigWithAWoodenLeg
I'm more thinking of the sudden emphasis on mercenary companies 5 books in, for instance. I like the Iron Islands stuff, but that too.
IamfunatpartiesIknow
Yes, this mess needs another 5 books
MrMineHeads
If you actually read the books, it is the exact opposite problem. Too many characters with too interesting a story
ILikeSmellingMyOwnFarts
This is just bullshit, have you actually READ the books? Don't blame the show's fuck up on him
spyzock
I don't know i don't read it, but in the show GRRM don't write the season 5 6 7 and 8
SaturnineCult
But he was advising them on the main plot lines the whole time. Though probably now he's going to change them since people didn't like it.
sjpace76
There is zero chance Dorne will be the same. It makes no sense within Martin's books.
ninjajellyfish
Except he's got exactly the opposite problem. The books are an anti-war story. Deaths are commonplace because it's war and war sucks. 1/?
ninjajellyfish
The problem is every death gets new people involved for revenge or other reasons, leading to more deaths & more characters & more stories2/?
ninjajellyfish
His problem now is that the books are so big it's impossible to wrap up every storyline succinctly. Go ahead and criticize the writing 3/?
ninjajellyfish
style all you want, but don't completely mischaracterize the books because the showrunners don't know how to write their own story. 4/4
FritoParadise
I still blame GOT for destiny 2 killing off Cayde-6. "Oh the only character in the game that brings humor to the table, let's kill him off"
Kateness
Shame they never finished the TV show and just ended it on that cliffhanger in season 7. Oh well.
OobedoobScoobidoobiBenubi
I actually had less issues with S8 than with S7. Though npne of it was as good as the first three seasons.
Imalwaysready
Yeah, seven AND eight sucked. Once they just started teleporting around randomly and instantly, it was dead on the vine.
BrainDrayne
I tried reading his books, he writes like he's still in school. The stories are cool but his writing style isn't good
MatrimBloodyCauthon
You too? I had the same issue. Bought 4 of em too
BrainDrayne
I got maybe 40 pages into his first book. Glad I borrowed it from the library
sureasyourebornyourenevergoingtoseenounicorn
He wrote himself onto a corner with the sansa story line, it’s going to take ages to straighten it out. I get why the show changed it.
lozeldatkm
The show changing Sansa's story was the beginning of its decline
sureasyourebornyourenevergoingtoseenounicorn
They were running out of enough material and are not good at making their own
lozeldatkm
True, and the show just couldn't handle as many auxiliary characters as the books. But I disagree with this post, none of it is GRRM's fault
IamfunatpartiesIknow
I thought the problem is Daenerys, he can always kill Sansa off
sureasyourebornyourenevergoingtoseenounicorn
He has more than one problem and that’s why he’s not writing
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sureasyourebornyourenevergoingtoseenounicorn
The Sana’a story is her and little finger in the vale and he’s trying to take over it using robin and marrying her to a different heir
Donku83
And the show merged her story with another minor character to keep her relevant
DeeRow11B
They’re long. The first couple are good but then it splinters off and hard to follow.
KrebstarCorporation
The opposite is the David Eddings model, where main characters are so safe that no threats to them have narrative value.
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
GRRM writing himself into a corner and killing people off are two seperate problems. ASoIaf is stalling because he has too many characters/1
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
/2 in too many locations and too many plot threads. (Young Griff is particular silly) not because he's killed too many people as a gimmick/2
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
/3 which is an exaggeration of what he does. /end
RunsWithScizrs
I feel like he writes like a river. Starts strong then small streams shoot off and eventually they all turn into dried up river beds.
CadeGreenbottle
Why does everyone dislike this show all of a sudden, but when it was airing everyone was practically eating his asshole over it...???
RunsWithScizrs
Because it was a really good show until the last season where they rushed what could have another 2 or 3 seasons.
CadeGreenbottle
Oh okay, it just seemed like everyone lost their minds over the show and then the series finale aired and it pissed everyone off.
RunsWithScizrs
You are 100% right.
wintermute93
All of a sudden? Reactions to S8 were extremely negative as it was airing. S1-S4 were great, S5-S7 were decent but needed a strong ending.
CadeGreenbottle
Gotcha. It just seemed like everyone loved it until the series finale and then it was like the most hated show ever.
DontTazeMeBrah
the whole last season is a dumpster fire
CadeGreenbottle
Emilia Clarke doesn't kick the bucket does she? I like her. She plays a good guy, right?
Op19
Um, she plays a conflicted character. But they did foreshadow it in season 1 when she had a scene walking into Kings Landing throne.
TCGView
Yep. He wrote himself into a corner. That's why as a writer, you save your big character deaths for later so it actually means something.
Jineapple
He has opened more plot threads than he can manage closing, but it really has nothing to do with character deaths. I don't know where this
Jineapple
idea comes from.
DeeRow11B
And here I am still waiting for that last one.
reuvil
Lol, he has published dozens of books in the last like 10 years. He doesn't give 2 shits about finishing the series.
1TrueKingInTheNorth
There's 2 books left
DeeRow11B
I’ve come to accept there will never be a final book unless George dies and someone else takes over.
wintermute93
GRRM has been very clear that he wants the series to die with him if he leaves it unfinished (which he will). There will never be an ending.
derscur
fuck, were fucked
osglith
*latest one. Sigh.
Barrum
1/This is a huge mis-characterization of what he does, and you're conflating show with books. In the books, he does kill off a few important
Youhavinagiraffe
Exactly the real problem is that he stopped letting significant plotting and political decisions happen outside a POV character's view
Hobbes777
tv show could have ended mediocrely and everything would be gr8. They couldn’t have shat the bed worse. It was one of the best shows ever
SerenePrincess013
S8 didn't happen, & I will die on this hill.
Barrum
2/characters, but that's fine too keep you afraid for the remaining characters, and there's still a ton of story left to write.
jerkittoanything
Which is great. If he ever gets around to writing the rest of the story.
Trassation
This, along with "OMG THE STORY IS ABOUT SO MUCH INCEST!" are probably the two biggest mis-characterizations people make about SoIaF.
butari2babe
Except after the first four books or so he was writing scripts and calling them books.
Barrum
He has five books out so far, and the last two are a single book split in two, he wasn't writing scripts, wtf are you even on about?
butari2babe
They were not well written. They seemed to me to be more focused on writing something that would more easily be turned into a script than
butari2babe
Continuing an engaging saga.
MurialsCourage
Yep a ton of story left to write that will most likely never get written.
IThoughtIdComeUpWithABetterUserNameThanThis
FigmentImage
This is somewhat fair, but I've been reading the books since like '99, and I remember jokes on *MySpace* among fans about him killing off...
FigmentImage
important characters for funsies so I wouldn't say it's conflating the show with the books, necessarily. There's still plenty left ...
FigmentImage
to write, I agree, but he also has written himself into a few corners and seems to be incapable of finishing a book. Hell, I remember ...
Imalwaysready
He has written into a few corners, but few from killing people. More from the opposite of introducing too many.
FigmentImage
when Feast and Winds were still supposed to be ONE BOOK that was "almost done" two years before he decided to split them.
BORGALOOGIE
THANK you. I’m hoping although not praying he might have finished the series but asked the publisher if it could be produced posthumous.
BORGALOOGIE
Besides which, this means only (mainly) book fans will follow, and TV folks will be watching the next goldfish gameshow.
whatdidyoureallyexpect
“Goldfish Gameshow” wins the internet. Thank you.
hedgehogsinhats
Fuck that Jon Connington storyline
RunsWithScizrs
I agree. We already have too many storylines and contenders for the throne. He can't even finish what he's got. So he adds more?
protoman1080
I like all of that. A rival with a better claim to the Targaryen dynasty? My money is on that in the books, they'll be holding King's Landin
RunsWithScizrs
I'm not sure he has a better claim.
protoman1080
g when Dany arrives, not Cersei, which is why the Golden Company will be there. Explains why Varys will be working against her.
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
Young Griff is a Blackfyre not a Targ. I'd wager. That's who the Golden Company backs. I have less of problem with the arc on paper than/1
TheLesserOfTwoWeevils
/2 the fact it was introduced in book 5 of 7. /end
protoman1080
That's fair, I think he's a Blackfyre too, the mummer's dragon and whatnot. It's a "con" job (get it?). Anyway I liked it
iamthemanwithnoname
I think the bigger issue is he kept bringing characters back. He loosely based his work on Medieval British history and the death of kings
TheChadZelenskyy
After all henry the 8th was dethroned by dragon princess and her mongolian boyfriend..
iamthemanwithnoname
No, but Richard II was so tomato tomato.
Wubbalubbadubdubb101
And as a result he over inflated books he can never finish. He has already got his paycheck into the sunset.
iamthemanwithnoname
didn't stop that being a fascinating subject.
simianruler
He once said that Tolkien's biggest failing was bringing Gandalf back from the dead.
culinarydream7224
Obviously not because he has a problem with resurrecting a character, but because of how the story could have evolved without him
simianruler
I'm fairly confident that, without Gandalf the White, Sauron would have won.
culinarydream7224
Never read the books and only saw the first movie, but I'm even more confident that Tolkien could've figured it out
Barrum
1/Kept bringing then back? There's like, two characters who very brought back in the books, three if we assume Jon snow will be back.
Barrum
2/One is Dondarrion and that's basically his only shtick, he's not really important beyond that, and the other is Lady Stark and the
Barrum
3/resulting abomination is completely unrecognizable as a character and is more accurately described as a vengeance-obsessed wraith.
culinarydream7224
I think resurrection in the GoT world works because of how it changes the characters. And its not like it's completely unheard of in fantasy
benegesserit
Yeah exactly!
tatischief
Pretty much. It's like people didn't read it or what. Stoneheart is a cautionary tale. Beric died to bring the monster back.
phacemelter
Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Sir Gregor definitely count. There are many more where GRRM leads us to assume someone is dead (Brianne, Tyrion,.)
Barrum
1/Bran and Rickon absolutely do not count. A fog of war/deception killing is not the same as seeing Catelyn get exsanguinated and literally
Barrum
2/zombified. Just because we're lead to *believe* Bran and Rickon were executed doesn't mean we had eyes on their execution. Similarly, we
Barrum
3/hear of Knight of Onions being executed in the north in the second to most recent book, only to discover subsequently that it, too, was
defideli
People in power constantly murdering each other is very realistic indeed, but constantly removing important characters and replacing them 1/
defideli
with new ones does not work too well in a work of fiction. Agree with the 1st issue, e.g. Lady Stonehart is symptomatic of the meme's point.
soylentbeef
Wait. Do people not like Lady Stoneheart?
XlTikilX
Right? I was so upset when they announced she wasn't gonna be in the show.
soylentbeef
I realty liked that part of the books. I think it would have been hard to adapt into the show. But I think it was a great story
fitchy0812
Counterpoint... dune
culinarydream7224
Can you really call them important characters if they get 1 chapter max of character development?
fitchy0812
I mean Paul literally dies in the second book and is only mentioned from there on out. Lato lasts 2 books and dies, but I see your point
stankginchfurbuger
Duncan Idaho. 5 minutes in the first book til he's dead. In the rest of the series he's mega important, as they resurrect him over and over
culinarydream7224
I disagree. It adds actual danger to the characters actions. Most fiction the characters are never really in any danger, and we're only...
KWJester49
I think it depends how it’s done. After so many books with low character death and consequences, Jim butcher emotionally traumatized his 1/2
KWJester49
Audience with his last book. 2/2
culinarydream7224
...waiting on the characters to win, with the exception of some red shirts along the way.
Pm713
Martin goes too far the opposite way because if I feel almost everyone dies, I stop caring. The books turned into a slog around number 3.
Schmapplesauce
I agree, although I do think that the exception to his rule in the form of reviving (like lady stoneheart) is problematic here and there.
Seigeengine
That would be because most fiction is written as stories of people, meaning they are pre-determined to make it to the end of their story.
culinarydream7224
Duh, but in GoT, we don't know who that is. I think the critique that killing a character is lazy writing, is itself lazy
Seigeengine
Contrast this with fictional histories, which are only coincidentally about people, and are also usually really boring.