Hotsauceman
103374
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Original post I’m referencing: https://imgur.com/gallery/gZLut4O
The kid and I had a conversation after class ended. I showed them the picture and asked when they took it. They said they took the picture earlier. I pointed out that I can see when they took it and they then said they took them on Tuesday. I said, "okay, so why do these pictures say they were taken on Saturday and the names of them say the date and time on them?" Their response, "…they do?" I replied, "your pictures that you take on those computers (flip books) default to names that are timestamps."
The kid tried to get around it and said, "well that's my backup packet" and I said, "could it be miraculously that this packet is not the backup, but the actual one?" The kid, "yes...". I had to talk about lying and if they told the truth the first time I would take it even if it was past the deadline and they said, "I won't do it again." To which I immediately replied, "buddy, I wrote you up last year for lying by cheating and you said you wouldn't do it again. I don't believe you at all."
I emailed home and included my principal as they were with me on the cheating incident last year. I got a DM from the principal saying I wrote a well informed email…this made me smile.
The dad of the student replied within 10 minutes profusely apologizing and said they were the ones asking if they submitted the assignment and the kid lied to the parents too. To all of you telling me to not grade it, I did. I can be a dick and not always the warmest person, but I give students chances to succeed.
Kyrorayne
You handled it perfectly, and thank you for the update!
dieselweezel
Pro tip to any one thinking of pulling a fast one. If a teacher, boss, whoever comes to you and points out obvious flaws in whatever you are trying to say. Just buck up butter cup and come clean because they already know. You're just digging your grave deeper.
Thojira
hopefully a lesson learned, sometime people have to get to the consequence part to learn
19marcurious57
This kid watches Fox News too often.
AdrianDunne
When I was in college one of the other students was caught for plagiarism and sent an email about it. He sent an email about appealing to History_all rather than the history office. Every student got a copy of the mail.
mksu
You actually went through and personally pinged each person who wanted an update on that last post. What a hero.
Sensiblyinteresting
Right? @op plz enjoy this accolade. You are wonderful
Hotsauceman
Then it wouldn’t let me
JavaCofe
Lessons were learned that day. Hard lessons, but learned none the less.
Awmph
help 'em now before they get to me. if I get them *potentially* cheating, I just send them over to academic integrity to let those folks figure out if it was a violation or not
JustSomePersonThere
Bravo!
AtmaDarkwolf
It is a valuable lesson. Well another lesson, he seemed to haven't really got the first time, 2nd time hit with a little more force so maybe he will learn.
DirkTeucher
If a child does not face consequences they grow up to be a Trump.
CrestoftheStars
OP delivers ♥
LovelyEnvy
Thank you for updating us! And you handled the situation very well!
madcatii
"To all of you telling me to not grade it, I did."
BishlamekGurpgork
A lot of people who never experienced consequences are influential today, and it shows. Even if this is his second round of consequences, at least he's experiencing them. Hopefully it makes a difference.
I'm glad you gave him a chance to come clean, at least.
Thickinthewarm
If you have indeed graded it the kid now thinks they have, yet again, gotten away with it. The kid needed to feel a consequence for their actions and now it seems they haven't.
Hotsauceman
No. The kid last year cheated and their consequence was severe. I checked in with admin and the kid is already on their radar. They know the kid lies. This is one assignment that doesn’t change anything in their grade.
Thickinthewarm
If the consequence were severe enough the kid wouldn't have continued with similar behaviour. So even more sever consequences are called for. Simply not grading the work would merely be the start of it. This molly coddle nonsense is going to be the end of us.
todaytomorrowwillbeyesterday
So, not a dick. Got it
beerlady
I use Interactive Notebooks now. Reduces the number of individual loose papers and accusations of losing things. Everything the kids do goes into the notebook. They tape everything into it.
Hotsauceman
I only allow submissions digitally. Rarely RARELY do I allow a paper copy because of that.
InkGoat
I have, in fact, lost students' paper assignments. Feels bad, man. Now reports and such are turned in as a .pdf to canvas.
I do still get students trying to delay by uploading a file that can't be opened. "Oh, the file must be corrupted! I'll send it again." Bruh you just changed the file extension of a blank word document to .pdf to trick Canvas into accepting the upload. I just tried other file extensions until it opened.
beerlady
I use the digital world do for activities, lab write ups, or assignment, but do work very hard to keep it within Google docs, forms, etc... for that trickery reason. Been lucky so far to not have my intelligence attacked. Lil rat b*******.
FoamingToad
https://www.garykessler.net/library/file_sigs.html
FoamingToad
Docx, xlsx, all the recent ms office formats, start with PK - because they're zipped XML and Phil Katz was the inventor of the zip format.
Hotsauceman
I want canvas so goddamn bad. We have Schoology and it is awful.
InkGoat
We switched from Moodle a few years ago. No regerts
DidgeryDrew
How have you been dealing with the use of AI for writing papers? It has been a HUGE struggle for me this year.
Hotsauceman
In math? We have had issues for a long time with photomath. I embraced a math-specific AI tool called flexi. I give that one to kids.
TohmaytohTohmahtoh
Way back in the early 80's, my English Lit teacher lost my term paper. No computerrs around at the time for me to write it up on; it was hand typed on an old electric typewriter. And photocopiers were new and few and far between, so I didn't have a copy other than my extensive handwritten notes.
Thirty-three pages long; gone without a trace. She denied receiving it, even though other students vouched for me that they had seen her collect it with their papers. 1/
TohmaytohTohmahtoh
I ended up getting an F for the first quarter, so I transferred from the 'Gifted' class to the 'Advanced' class. Straight A's for the rest of the year because my teacher was great and actually encouraged me to write and be creative. She never lost any of my work. And she confided in me towards the end of the year that she deriously dislkied my old teacher (as did most of the staff). I'm actually glad I got out from under that one when I did... 2/2
PepperoniAndFingernailPizza
I think you handled it well. You put your pride aside and did the kindest thing. This kid is ADHD. I'm 100% certain by the lies as I did the same kind of things at that age.
IJustWantToMakeAComment
This could also indicate overbearing or “scary” parents. I got in the habit of constantly lying even about unimportant shit because I had to lie at home all the time because I was always guilty of something. Also- I lived on a farm with no neighbors and internet wasn’t really a thing yet so there were only so many bad things I could have possibly been doing
LordOfThePenguin
Came here to say this. @op you did an amazing job of communicating the severity of the problem while giving the kid a chance to still succeed academically. Our culture prioritizes honesty to the point of an almost weird fetishization, and ADHD folks often end up being treated as monsters because of our impulse to lie as a way out of difficult or scary situations.
DanielAsparagus
Don’t blame adhd for antisocial behavior.
Bigbob993
I could confirm this without giving you a link, as I grew up with poorly managed ADHD, but lying to avoid consequences and effort is one of the things used to diagnose it. It's not "antisocial behavior", it's "trying to escape constant consequences for not doing what you're supposed to". Kids grow out of it, I did, but it's one of the first apparent ways ADHD shows up besides being energetically annoying. https://www.understood.org/en/articles/adhd-and-lying-what-you-need-to-know
Bigbob993
It's not "I think I can get away with it, fuck this person" for kids like this. It's "I can't keep up with everything I'm supposed to do and everyone is mad at me all the time, I have to do something to stop this". Which is the opposite of antisocial, it's caring significantly about what people think of you, and worrying that they'll see you as deficient. That's a pro-social response, unlike lying to people because you just don't respect them or care.
Hotsauceman
Avoidance of work and ADHD do go hand in hand many times
skathir
My kid was bullied by his teacher for being ADHD and hounded out of that school, with her constructing that narrative around him. New school and he's freakin diligent (obviously it's hard for him sometimes) and getting student awards.
Hotsauceman
100%!!!!!!!!!! I’ve been teaching for 12 years and you can tell if a kid has ADHD.
valen00
Small suggestion if you haven't already. Check out inattentive type ADHD, if the kid is smart "gifted" it can be hidden in a lot of ways at school. They aren't pinging off the walls but they have similar executive function issues. "timmy would do great if they applied themselves" diagnosed at 38, medication has been a game changer. I wouldn't have wasted 20 years of my life. (Not blaming you or teachers etc, just raising awareness with anecdote)
MakesMeNoNevermind
I wonder why all my teachers missed it then. I didn't get diagnosed until 46.
SavageDrums
Hey, me too! And in the 80s ADHD was called "being disruptive in class"
amglasgow
It was a lot less well known in the 80s and 90s.
bloodtaker3
I found a report card of mine from 2nd grade stating "bloodtaker would be a good student if he would sit still and concentrate and not daydream". I'm 64.
Thanks for making me think I was lazy and dimwitted, bitch! Diagnosed adhd 10 years ago.
valen00
Inattentive type and a high IQ hides a lot of things when you are at school source diagnosed at 38. My mother was a teacher who triggered many diagnoses in others.
cmsport2
I wouldn't even say it's necessarily a high IQ. Mine isn't anything to brag about, but I was a great student. The key as I see it, is you get lucky and the thing that triggers your hyperfocus is a school subject that society decided was valuable, like History or Literature. I would read textbooks for fun. So many ADHD kids have their hyperfocus triggered by artistic subjects, which is just academically unlucky and unfair.
Hotsauceman
Easy. We are not medically trained. If we give a diagnosis like that we get in fucking trouble to the point we could lose our license.
MakesMeNoNevermind
I wouldn't expect a diagnosis from a teacher. A heads up would have been super cool, though. Instead I got called lazy, a failure, an idiot and I got sent to the special needs class to "see how I'd like it". In all the meetings I had to have with my parents, they never suggested that something recognizable was happening, they just painted me as a problem student. You know, all really unhelpful things that tend to stay with you as a child.
Hotsauceman
For me I’m known in the community and by admins as a great communicator. If I see kids failing or acting off I don’t hesitate to email home. I don’t call because of needing a paper trail which is sad, but welcome to the land of litigation. I can’t say, “hey, they may need to seek help” or something like that. I’ve had a parent ask me if their child should be tested and all I could say without getting into trouble was replying, “you’ll get answers and at worst the only thing wasted was time.”
ladyjigglebutt
Yup. Got abused by most of my math teachers, got called stupid, lazy, and worse. Turns out I'm Autistic and ADHD and have a learning disability that primarily affects my brain's ability to do anything with numbers, it also affects the balance and coordination parts of my brain so I am terminally clumsy. PE was a nightmare.
But back in the 90's to 00's it was still widely believed that girls couldn't be autistic or ADHD. So I got heaps of trauma instead. Yay.
PepperoniAndFingernailPizza
It wasn't as well understood during the 70s - 90s. I was undiagnosed and had we not had a global pandemic, probably still be undiagnosed. My mom says to me still "I thought you were a normal kid." Like the fact that I literally couldn't get my homework done without someone telling me too wasnt an indicator. Or dropping out of highschool as soon as I turned 18.